关于开环传递函数的更好测试。

PEN

“我咨询的是* force command”或者力的引导线。
我下载了RMCTools”
好！ 您想通过互联网访问RMC75E吗？

“而且我会有一台数字量输入的RMC75E”
我不明白。 你有RMC75E吗？

“但我没有英语，我不关心RMC75E工程上的表现能力，我关心的是RMC75E能否帮助我理解模型，选择参数，能否辅助设计。”
RMC75E可以通过模拟运动或力控制来协助您的设计。 但是，您必须能够计算开环增益，固有频率和阻尼因子，并将这些数字输入RMC75E的模拟器。
我认为使用python模拟器更容易，因为不需要RMC75E

"我咨询的是*force  command”或者力的引导线。
我下载了RMCTools，"
Good! Do you want to access the RMC75E over the internet?

"而且我会有一台数字量输入的RMC75E，"
I do not understand.  Do you have a RMC75E?

"但我没有英语，我不关心RMC75E工程上的表现能力，我关心的是RMC75E能否帮助我理解模型，选择参数，能否辅助设计。"
The RMC75E can assist your design by simulating the motion or force control.  However, you must be able to calculate the open loop gain, natural frequency and damping factor and enter these numbers into the RMC75E's simulator.
I think it is easier to use the python simulator because no RMC75E is required.

蜻蜓

谢谢。
我没有python程序，因为我没学过英语，所以不想学习python,  但是过几天我会有一台RME75E-MA2,本主题的固有频率和阻尼比我会算，但英语是个障碍，我不会python,    如果我下载一个python,程序，再用您提供的模拟器程序，我只要改变参数就能使用python模拟伺服控制吗？我不会python编程能用python模拟吗？

PEN

有一个英文和中文的启动指南
https://deltamotion.com/cn/RMC70%20Startup20190117CN.pdf
这可能有助于减少语言挫折感。
我可以向您发送可在RMC75上运行的程序。
用户程序可以与主项目分开导出和导入。 这样可以轻松共享或重复使用程序。 评论可以用中文书写和保存。

最终你需要学习一些程序语言。 有一些客户只能直接从RMCTools发出命令。 RMC75具有用户程序，如＃9所示。 它是结构化文本的子集。 结构化文本是PLC OPEN定义的编程语言之一。 有些人喜欢使用梯形逻辑从PLC发送命令和数据。 几乎在所有情况下都使用HMI（显示界面），因此操作员可以更改参数。

There is a startup guide in English and Chinese
https://deltamotion.com/cn/RMC70%20Startup20190117CN.pdf
This may help reduce the language frustration.
I can send you programs that will work on the RMC75.
User programs can be exported and imported separate from the main project.   This makes it easy to share or re-use programs.   The comments can be written and saved in Chinese.

Eventually you will need to learn some programmng language.  There are a few customers that only issue commands directly from RMCTools.  The RMC75 has user programs as shown in #9.  It is a subset of Structured Text.   Structured Text is one of the programming languages defined by PLC OPEN.  Some people prefer to send commands and data from a PLC using ladder logic.  In almost all cases a HMI ( display interface ) is used so the operator can change parameters.  

蜻蜓

      Previously, I had a Chinese startup guide on my computer. It was too little. It was easy for my computer to connect to RMC controller. I was translating the manual of using the "Rmctools" debugging software with my computer. MC75 running procedures, online download address?Thank you, Mr. Pen. Let me run it.

蜻蜓

The VCCM equation does not apply to forcecontrol.  The open loop gain for positionand velocity does not apply to pressure or force.  The units are wrong.  (mm/s)/%control output makes no sense forpressure or force control.

The formulas for force control are morecomplicated.

The open loop gain for force has units of(N/s)/%control output.

I will write about this later.

通过牛顿定律，流量系数推导出速度的VCMM方程。牛顿定律是力学定律，为什么没人推导一下与速度VCMM方程对应的 “力的“Fccm”方程?”

通过伺服阀压力增益，求出伺服阀压力系数，推导出“Fccm方程，”计算力的开环增益, 或许还有别的用，您为什么不尝试一下？

The VCMM equation of velocity is deduced by Newton's law and flow coefficient. Newton's law is a law of mechanics. Why did no one deduce the "Fccm" equation of force corresponding to the velocity VCMM equation?
Whether the pressure coefficient of the servo valve can be calculated by the pressure gain of the servo valve, and the "Fccm equation" can be derived. The open-loop gain of the computational force may be of other use. Why don't you try to be the first person?

PEN

我以为你不懂英文！
我已经计算了力变化率的公式作为阀芯位置的函数。
我可能不是第一个，但我已经做到了。我不知道Bosch-Rexroth知道什么。我知道Bosch-Rexroth拥有液压博士学位，我必须与他们竞争。
我实际上遇到过一两个博世力士乐博士。我们竞争，但是当我们见面时，我们对液压技术有很好的讨论。

力增益的公式比VCCM方程复杂得多，因为压力总是在变化。

力的数学更加复杂，因为活塞每侧的压力都有一个计算压力变化率的公式。这类似于VCCM方程计算的位置变化率。在这两种情况下，必须综合变化率，但是力的变化率需要将活塞两侧的压力率积分然后乘以活塞每侧的面积来计算力的变化率。 。

现在我知道你可以阅读英文，请阅读第4/7页的顶部。 RMC可以以每秒55到100次的速率将力控制到+/- 1N控制力到100+ kN。
https://deltamotion.com/peter/pdf/articles/Multi-Axis%20Motion%20Controller%20Accelerates%20Gear%20Testing%20-%20Tech%20Briefs.pdf

我毫不怀疑公司在最好的反馈装置，阀门，气缸和控制器上花了很多钱，但他们的齿轮测试仪是最好的。

我的观点是我们已经完成了这项研究。
像问题一样
https://www.iyeya.cn/thread-66648-1-1.html
没有人有答案。
答案应该很简单。
我知道这不是液压人员的教导，但在实践中，液压，机械和控制是不可分割的。

I thought you didn't know English!
I have already computed formula for the force rate of change as a function of the spool position.
I may not be the first but I have done it.  I have no idea what Bosch-Rexroth knows.   I know that Bosch-Rexroth has PhDs in hydraulics and I must compete with them.
I have actually met with one or two of the Bosch Rexroth PhDs.  We compete but we have nice converstations about hydraulic technology when we meet.

The formulas for the force gain is much more complicated than the VCCM equation because the pressures are always changing.

The mathematics for force are more complicated because the pressure on each side of the piston each have a formula that calculates the rate of change of pressure.   This is similar to the rate of change of position calculated by the VCCM equation.    In both cases the rate of change must be integrated but the the rate of change in force requires that the pressure rate on both sides of the piston be integrated then multiplied by the areas on each side of the piston to calculate the rate of change in force.

Now that I know you can read English, read top of page 4/7.   The RMC can control force to +/- 1N controling force to 100+ kN at at rate of 55 to 100 times a second.
https://deltamotion.com/peter/pdf/articles/Multi-Axis%20Motion%20Controller%20Accelerates%20Gear%20Testing%20-%20Tech%20Briefs.pdf

I have no doubt that the company spent a lot of money on the best feedback devices, valves, cylinders and our controllers but then their gear tester is the best.

My point is that we have done the research.
Problems like
https://www.iyeya.cn/thread-66648-1-1.html
No one has the answer.
The answer should be easy.
I understand it is not what hydraulic people are taught but in practice,  hydraulics, mechanics and control cannot be separated.

蜻蜓

不，我不会英文，上面的英文是电脑翻译的。我来论坛时对伺服控制一无所知，我也不会伺服控制。

I have no doubt that the company spent alot of money on the best feedback devices, valves, cylinders and ourcontrollers but then their gear tester is the best.

需要和好的软件算法配合使用，才能有好的效果。可否介绍一下这个算法或者力传递函数。

Many press machines will cavitate when whenreducing speed after moving down.  Thereare ways to avoid cavitation.

假设油缸伸出，

如果发生空化，速度（V）是设计要求不能改变，加大伺服阀流量，提高（Kv）有多大用？

如果不改变 （Kv），那么剩下 （Aa）和 （xs）是两个变量，加大 （Aa）怎么看出 ((Aa*v)/(Kv*xs))^2会变小？怎么看出（xs）比(Aa)变得更大？

做个假设，加大（Aa,），但是有杆腔（Ab）很小，为了便于理解，假设（Ab）小到极限变成柱塞缸，这时（Aa）无论加大到多少，油缸减速都会失速，产生空化，所以我感觉空化与（Ab）有关，加大（Ab）才能限速，防止空化。防止（Ab）容腔超压。（Ab）腔提供减速的制动力，而这个公式Ps-((Aa*v)/(Kv*xs))^2<=0没有（Ab）。哪里理解错了？

请教：我见到的压力机（Ab）面积相对都很小，有什么公式和方法避免空化？

PEN

公式VCCM公式必须分为两部分。
一部分在活塞顶部提供力
它是
FA =Ps* Aa  - （（v * Aa）/（Kv * xs））^ 2 *Aa
力将为0，因为压力将为零。将双方划分为了Aa
0 =Ps - （（v * Aa）/（Kv * xs））^ 2
解决v ^ 2
v^2 =诗*（（Kv * xs）/ Aa）^ 2
活塞底部的力必须等于质量*（减速度+重力）
质量*（减速+重力）=（（v *Ab）/（Kv * xs））^ 2 *Ab
再次解决v ^ 2
v^2 =质量*(减速+重力*(Kv * xs）^ 2 /Ab^ 3
因此，顶部和底部的v ^ 2解决方案是相同的
Ps *（（Kv * xs）/ Aa）^ 2 =质量*（减速+重力）*（Kv * xs）^ 2 /Ab^ 3
现在你可以解决质量或减速问题。
质量= Ps * Ab ^ 3 /（Aa ^ 2 *（减速+重力）)

如果不能改变减速度，质量是在没有空化的情况下可以减速的最大质量。

减速度是无法改变质量时可以达到的最大减速率。
请注意，Kv和xs不再是等式的一部分。
你是对的！获得更大的阀门无济于事！
但是，如果使用非对称阀门会怎样. Kva = 2 * Kvb

现在使用这个等式求解质量和减速度。
Ps*（（Kva * xs）/ Aa）^ 2 =质量*（减速+重力）*（ Kvb*xs）^ 2 /Ab^ 3
Ps*((Kva*xs)/Aa)^2=mass*(deceleration+gravity)*(Kvb*xs)^2/Ab^3

我会允许大约10％的保证金，因为方程式没有考虑到油压缩。
我会写一篇关于这个的杂志文章。这是一个很好的话题


The formula VCCM formula must be divided into two parts.
One part provides the force on the top of the piston
it is
Fa=Ps*Aa-((v*Aa)/(Kv*xs))^2*Aa
The force will be 0 because the pressure will be zero.  Divide both sides by Aa
0=Ps-((v*Aa)/(Kv*xs))^2
solve for v^2
v^2=Ps*((Kv*xs)/Aa)^2
The force on the bottom of the piston must be equal to the mass*(deceleration+gravity)
mass*(deceleration+gravity)=((v*Ab)/(Kv*xs))^2*Ab
Solve for v^2 again
v^2=mass*(deceleration+gravity)*(Kv*xs)^2/Ab^3
so the solution for v^2 on the top and the bottom are equal
Ps*((Kv*xs)/Aa)^2=mass*(deceleration+gravity)*(Kv*xs)^2/Ab^3
Now you can solve for mass or deceleration.
mass = Ps*Ab^3/(Aa^2*(deceleration+gravity)
deceleration=  (Ps*Ab^3-mass*deceleration*Aa^2)/(Aa^2*mass)

mass is the maximum mass that can be decelerated without cavitating if the deceleration cannot be changed.

deceleration is the maximum deceleration rate that can be achieved if the mass cannot be changed.
Notice that Kv and xs are no longer part of the equation.
You are right!  Getting a bigger valve will not help!
However, what if an asymmetrical valve is used.   Kva=2*Kvb

Now solve for mass and deceleration using this equation.
Ps*((Kva*xs)/Aa)^2=mass*(deceleration+gravity)*(Kvb*xs)^2/Ab^3

I would allow about 10% margin because the equations do not take into account that oil compresses.
I will make a magazine article about this.  It is a good topic.

蜻蜓

However, what if an asymmetrical valve is used.   Kva=2*Kvb
谢谢。我觉得取决M*V的大小，M*V转化为压力能较大时，引起（Ab）超压就不行了。

PEN

蜻蜓 发表于 2019-5-24 19:11
谢谢pen老师，我咨询的是*force  command”或者力的引导线。我下载了RMCTools，而且我会有一台数字量输入的 ...

我被告知我不明白这个问题。
没有像MOVE ABSOLUTE命令那样的“FORCE”命令。有一个设定的压力/力指令，但仅当RMC75具有强制模拟输入时。如果您转到索引并搜索强制，则在线帮助中有一个部分。
如果在与障碍物接触之前给出“强制”命令，则活塞将非常快地加速直到阻塞物被击中。这将是一次崩溃。这不会很好。

在进入力控制模式之前，杆的末端必须与障碍物接触。
有一个压力/力限制命令。该命令同时执行两个PID。一个用于位置，一个用于力。使用两个PID输出中的较低者。这种模式很简单，效果很好。

我最喜欢的控制模式之一是带有力限制的开环。
它很容易实现。

压力机和测试机通常使用力反馈工作。注塑机和液压成型机通常使用压力反馈。


I was told I didn't understand the question.
There is no "FORCE" command like the MOVE ABSOLUTE command. There is a set pressure/force command but only if the RMC75 has analog inputs for force. There is a section in the on-line help if you go to the index and search for force.
If a "FORCE"  command was given before making contact with an obstruction, the piston would accelerate extremely fast until the obstruction was hit. This would be a crash. This would not be good.

The end of the rod must be in contact with the obstruction before going into force control mode.
There is a pressure/force limit command. This command executes two PIDs simultaneously. One for position and one for force. The lower of the two PID outputs is used. This mode is simple and works well.

One of my favorite modes of control is open loop with force limit.
It is easy to implement.

Press machines and testing machines usually work using force feedback. Injection molding machines and hydro forming machines usually use pressure feedback.